Star Wreck: In the Pirkinning



This is a brilliant ST:NG/B5 parody by a group of Finnish fans. It starts out a bit slowly (the story is built upon their evolving Star Wreck series), and is an hour and 43 minutes long, but it is well-worth the watching. The humor translates well, and the effects are top-notch.

If you find you enjoy it, look for the earlier (shorter) episodes in the series (sadly lacking the B5 references).

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I have seen that film and it is really funny, I also highly recommend it.

Just for those Babylonians who are inclined to be impatient, you see your first Starfury 27 minutes into the film. Then it's a nice mix of ST:NG and B5 until the end.

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SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS

The strong women of Babylon 5:

Commander Susan Ivanova:


Ambassador Delenn:


Telepath Lyta Alexander:



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Ray:

With all due respect, fellow Babylonier, I believe the following is much more representative of the "wrath" of Lyta Alexander:

And speaking of the "Strong Women" of Babylon 5:

Witness one Susan Ivanova, who with the White Star fleet kicked the ever-living shit out of a force of Shadow-tech enhanced Earth Alliance destroyers:

Well, ya know, I figgered I could count on you to find some good vids, Mike... I just didn't think this one was one of Lyta's finer moments.


Nice! This was actually the vid I had been hoping to find for Ivanova.

Anybody have any good vid of Na'toth or Talia Winters?

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Well yeah, she does still get busted at the end. Maybe the one where she sets off the auto-destruct system on Z'Ha'Dum then, I suppose. I just wanted something which shows her... waitaminit... just thought of another one as I'm typing this. Lemme see... yes!!!



Now that is the Ultimate Lyta Alexander!


You're very kindly welcome, Ray.

I more of an Ivanova fan but I felt that Delenn was more groundbreaking as a strong woman because her strength came from her religious beliefs and her iron will.

Figgered you'd show up to this shindig, Lono! Glad to have ya join in!

Ivanova was, to me, more impressive, because she found her strength and her courage despite some real fears and flaws. Delenn, on the other hand, was interesting to me because, despite her "humanization," she would, at times, remind us that she was still a Minbari.

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Ivanova: I understood why she had major problems trusting people and I always liked how professional and disciplined she was but she was more a standard (cliche?) female action hero than Delenn.

Delenn: A women being strong because of her beliefs and will is something you don't see in light of the bias towards the compotent woman of action. That's why I think she was cooler than Ivanova although I never really became a major fan of her. I liked how she was played off against Neroon who was an excellent foil and bad guy.

I suppose you have to factor in how B5 was influenced by LOTR, Ivanova is a tragic Eowyn and Delenn a combination Arwen/Galadriel/Guinevere.

An interesting POV. Simplified, Ivanova as front-line "hero," Delenn (initially) as supporting-cast "mentor," though, of course, the lines blurred quite a bit where Delenn was concerned, particularly in later seasons. But it is in the details of the characterizations that the deeper value of each may be found. Ivanova, being as you point out a more straightforward "heroic" type, found depth in her flaws and personal conflicts. She was basically a foil for Sinclair and Sheridan's authority, someone with a similar, but less strictly-drawn level of authority and responsibility, more "human" than either of the two commanders could be allowed to be. I particularly enjoyed her interactions with Marcus Cole (Sir Galahad? Remember Marcus' purity and devotion), as he seemed most capable of upsetting her apple cart.

Delenn, on the other hand, started out as an androgynous, enigmatic alien whose outwardly-helpful gestures were, in fact, merely to advance her agenda vis a vis Sinclair and his role in the scheme of things. She didn't start out even close to what she ended up being, and I'm not just referring to her transformation. Indeed, hers was a transformation of character much like those of Ambassadors G'kar and Mollari, though her fate was less tragic. But the biggest change was when she stopped being a mysterious background character and joined the "Fellowship," as it were, taking a more active role in things as the war heated up.

Hmm... Might be worth posting some of the male characters' "finest moments" soon, too...

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I like Ivanova more than Delenn but I was trying to step back from my POV. The thing I found most interesting about Ivanova is her problem with trusting people save a few friends and how you could clearly see a difference in how she got along with Sheridan/Garibaldi and how she got along with Marcus whose interest was romantic not just friendship oriented.

Of course,the great tragedy of Ivanova's life was that,even trusting as few people as she did didn't prevent her from being hurt. Finally letting her guard down around Talia backfired spectacluarly and caused her great pain-even though she only admitted to it once after Talia left. And then,there's the fact that,after Marcus finally got past all her defenses and she let herself love him,she lost him too. She tried to hide it but the woman was in a lot of pain....


Best wishes,

Scott

Ivanova hid it well, even when life was apparently going well for her you knew this major problem was on the backburner. I always wanted her to get over all that pain and thought Marcus could have helped her but JMS pulled off one crazy stunt by killing off Marcus (I was really shocked by it in the much the same way I was by Mercedes not leaving Fernand for Dantes after The Count of Monte Cristo/Dantes got his revenge on Fernand or before that). I suppose that one thing that about Ivanova I find haunting, that even with good friends like Sheridan, Garibaldi and Marcus she was still in pain.

It is odd how the most two boisterous figures on B5 -Ivanova and Londo -are also the lonliest and saddest. I'd like to think Ivanova found somebody-it's haunting how even though Delenn loses the love of her life at the end of the series,there's no question that she's still had a happier life than Ivanova....
The weird thing about JMS killing off Marcus is that JMS actually resurrected Marcus but not too many people know about it. During the period when Amazing Stories was publishing media tie-in fiction,JMS (at least, I think it was JMS) did a B5 story for them which dealt with Marcus being thawed out of his capsule and awakening in the far distant future of the B5 universe. Does anybody want further details on what happened next?



Best wishes,

Scott

In my humble opinion, the final follow-up story sounds a tad creepy and uncharacteristic and unworthy of Marcus; while I've never read it, the synopsis makes it sound rather disturbing and quite unsatisfactory.

From the Wiki:

"Marcus' story concludes in "Space, Time & the Incurable Romantic", a short story written by JMS and published in Amazing Stories #602." The Wiki article includes the synopsis, for those who are interested, as well as JMS' rationale for the story as he wrote it.

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When I've talked about this series with others over the years, it is always with a great deal of fondness.

I feel about the characters the same way I feel about the seasons: It's like trying to pick a favorite amongst your own children.

To tell you the truth,I've read it and I agree with you. I really don't know what the heck JMS was thinking.....


Best wishes,

Scott

It's as though Londo and Ivanova had to be boisterous to get away from themselves. With Londo he had even fewer people who cared about him than Ivanova (basically Vir was the only person who cared about Londo).

Edit: The Marcus didn't die thing sounds weird. Is that story canon?



That's a good description.

Check out the Wiki, last paragraph. It was JMS' last word on the fate of Marcus Cole. I'd call it canon, but unfortunate.

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It sounds rather un-JMS to do something like that but it's canon........ *relucantly accepts it*.

There were times, I think,when it might have benifted JMS to have a little more outside input (I was never happy with Lennier just abruptly snapping after five years of cool serenity....)


Best wishes,

Scott

I always thought that the wife he wound up with did care about Londo deep down inside-that was why she never lied to him. But,although Londo was wise enough to choose her,sadly,he was never wise enough to jettison his vision of single-handedly restoring his people's glory. That vision left no place in his life for her-and Londo paid the price. Londo always chose what he saw as his duty-which turned out to be a tragic mistake....

Best wishes,


Scott

Londo was a good "face" for the Centauri, they were a combination of the British and Roman empires. Londo personally was an example of the old saying "be careful what you wish you for, you may get it".

Would you say, by extension, that the Narn represented the colonized native peoples throwing off the yoke of empire?

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I'd peg them as the Goth's mostly because the Goth's destroyed Rome (the city) after being oppressed for over a decade and the Narn slaughtered a lot of Centauri late in S5. That was cold blooded murder but I understood why the Narn (and Drazi) did it. Also the Goth's were warlike and initially a peaceful people who learned to fight because they were oppressed.

Interesting analysis.

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I think,ultimately,that "Be Careful what you wish for" is a major theme of B5 in general-Londo is,of course, the major example of that but there is a reason Mordren's favored method of tempting people is to offer them what they want...
As far the Centurai/Narn relationship goes,i've always thought of it as an example of the tragic cycle that can come into being once an empire is set up. The oppressed group rebels and then winds up casting itself in the image of its oppressors-becoming just as cruel and monsterous as the oppressors were. The Centauri and Narn alternate who's on top throughout the run of B5-arguing that both cultures have become truly interchangable. This becomes very clear when Londo and G'Kar are trapped together after that explosion,and as they yell at each other,we see just how similar they really are. It is only when that cycle is abandoned that any progress is made...


Best wishes,

Scott

JMS said that the characters in this series (in particular, the regular and established ones) got what they wanted, even though sometimes it wasn't quite what they expected.

Londo wanted to return to the glory days, and in a sense got what he asked for.

G'Kar wanted to see Centauri Prime burn, and get what it had coming from it's bad relations with Narn. This is pretty much what happened.

Ivanova wanted to be left alone, and she got that.

Vir Coto wanted to see Morden dead, with his head on a pike. He got his literal wish.

Garibaldi wanted a better life for himself and a second chance with Lise. He didn't expect this to happen, but it did.

Sinclair wanted focus, direction and a purpose. It took him 1000 years into the past and a genetic transmogrification, but he got what he wanted.

Sheridan wanted peace and stability, got it, but had to pay the ultimate price to achieve it.

Delenn wanted peace and reunification of her people. It also took a genetic transmogrification, and having a child with a human, but she got what she wanted.

Not sure about Franklin, Cartagia, Lenier, Na'Toth, Lockley, and some of the others.

I'm not sure Ivanova really wanted to be left alone-while she grumbled a lot,deep down inside, she was a very loving person. Things just never worked out for her.
It occurs to me that while Lennier certainly made a play for what he wanted-Delenn-it didn't exactly work out for him....


Best wishes,

Scott

I think it has to do with acknowledging what you want. Neither Ivanova nor Lennier would have acknowledged, even to themselves, what they wanted...

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Interesting thought. Admittedly,Ivanova did acknoweldge her attraction to Talia and Marcus much too late but Lennier got in trouble for suddenly acknowledging his attraction to Delenn (although,as i said,I did think the time,place and manner in which he did it was very out of character...).


Best wishes,

Scott

Lennier told Marcus about his attraction to Delenn in Ceremonies of Light and Dark, ironically to Marcus.

Point taken. I should have said the way in which Lennier decided to pursue his attraction to Delenn was abrupt and out-of- character.


Best wishes,

Scott

That was how I saw it, as well. Sometimes a long-suppressed longing can come to the surface as a desperate and ill-considered gambit when hope fades, or when opportunity appears.

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In Valen's name:


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I realize this is an old post and this thread has not been touched for awhile. I was unaware of the continuing Marcus story. I have mixed feelings on it. I do want him to have the happy ending, but the clone thing is a little strange. I would probably watch it anyway. I enjoyed the character Marcus and I was devastated when he was killed off. Part of me felt really bad for him that he died a virgin too. What a shame, he finally fell in love and then he dies. He added some comic relief to the show at times too and I loved that about his character.

I must say I love all the characters but, I enjoyed watching Londo and G'kar's story unravel more than anyone else. I especially love G'kar. When those two actors were on screen they seemed to steal the light from everyone else. I always watched them more than enyone else in a room. I do not know if it was the characters or the actors themselves. Either way it made for good television. The struggle that Londo and G'kar had with trying to ensure that their people were their first priority amazed and saddened me. It was Londo's tragic flaw that he wanted to restore the old republic ,but it was G'kars saving grace that he wanted to free his people. His character became more enlightened and discovered a sense of self and inner peace that Londo was never able to acquire.

I am rewatching the entire series again on dvd. I am getting close to finishing season 4. Its moving a little slow now that the shadow war is over, the build up for the war was fantastic. I know have more to look forward too but I do kind of like the beginning of the war council and all. I have been thinking about this show a lot lately and how well written it was. Until Battlestar Galactica I had not found another science fiction show that equaled this one. Now both of them are over and I am left needing something new that catches my attention this much.

Hey, unless B5 disappears from the annals of science fiction, this will never be an "old thread." Your post, and any renewed discussion, are very welcome, and quite appreciated!

B5 was a great show marred by the necessity of shuffling things because of network difficulties. The fact that JMS got his five year arc, at all, was a monumental achievement. Not a show for everyone, it remains an underappreciated classic. It's a shame we'll likely never see any more, but we can still talk about what we did get to see! =^[.]^=

I think that there's no question that,by the end of B5,Londo and G'kar had pretty much walked off with the show. I've often wondered if that was intended or if it was just one of those things that happened as the show progressed. Even on a show as tightly planned as B5, the story can take a direction that surprises everybody....

Best wishes,

Scott

I wondered that too. I am not sure if it was just the acting or the way they wrote the characters. I really liked all the characters. I just loved Londo and G'kar more. Which is strange since I am always a shipper for someone and that is usually my favorite characters. G'kar's ability to accept his pain and suffering and try to move on made him the character that grew the most, the character that was really better suited than some to lead a new generation.

B5's great virtue lay in how it gradually revealed more depth in the characters, along with their gradual evolution:

*Londo the buffoon, who became a tragic statesman

*G'kar the lusty, ambitious rebel, who became a spiritual figure, and almost Londo's friend

*Vir, Londo's timid and ineffectual aide, who rose to a much greater destiny

*Lennier, whose last, tragic act was uncharacteristically human

There were others, but the dynamic state of the characters was a powerful, subtle force which drove the show.

Sadly, the casting was disrupted by the same issues that almost caused B5's premature cancellation, and S5 was not the denoument it might have been, but rather a bit of an anticlimax. ='[.]'=

I enjoyed Season 5 for the most part-I wasn't entirely happy with the telepath rebellion arc or Lennier's eventual fate (and one or two other things) but it did produce " a View from The Decks" which I adored, Neil Gaiman's episode (which turned Capt. Lockley from an Ivanova clone into her own fascinating character),the " Day in the life of Bester" episode,the classic finale episode etc.etc. I thought it was a pretty good season all in all...


Best wishes,

Scott

Oh, I don't dispute that individual episodes of S5 were gems in their own right. It's only that, after the Shadow War, it was, in retrospect, sorta like marking time until the end. That's what I meant by anticlimactic. I could have watched many more such eps for years to come, but they wouldn't have had the epic feel that the first four seasons did. =^[.]^=

X-- Ray is right. And with the advent of the DVD sets-colleges may well start teaching the fine art of sci fi on TV...

The actors/writers give us so very much to chew over, even after all these years. The ensemble- whomever did B5's casting was both certifiable and genius... folk I would never have imagined to be even fair turned out amazing. While I may have issues with some of the choices characters make, I try to remember that the point of the arch is the end all-- the writers needed things to go to a certain place, and manipulated the characters to get us there. Tragedy is in all families and histories... the 'if only's go on forever. Joss killed off Wash in Serenity-- you gotta expect something somewhere in the plot that makes ya cry, or you haven't had the cathartic experience drama is designed to give the viewer.

Enjoy your re-visit!! I've found mine very rewarding!

Ah-now I understand what you mean...I didn't particularly miss the war against the shadows myself since I felt that that with the development of the intergalactic alliance,we were still getting an epic... I'm just sorry we never got to see the Crusade epic for the most part....

Best wishes,

Scott

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Ivanova will also rip your lungs out!!! Follow the docking procedures properly damnit!!!!